Podcast with Rachel Rayner, Science Explainer

dougfinke

4 weeks ago

Telling Science Stories with Poetry, Comedy and Wonder

Overview

In this episode of The Quantum Spin by HKA, host Veronica Combs takes a deep dive into how to make difficult topics interesting and engaging with Rachel Rayner, Science Explainer. A communicator, writer, and performer, Rachel shares her unique journey of combining science with the arts, highlighting her one-woman comedy show, “A Flying Photon,” and her work on the EV Nautilus. They discuss the importance of improvisation, deep listening, and knowing one’s audience to effective communication. Tune in to understand how blending wonder and curiosity with scientific stories can make complex subjects accessible to all.

00:00 Welcome to The Quantum Spin
00:34 Meet Rachel Rayner: The Science Explainer
00:55 Rachel’s Journey and Career Highlights
01:46 The Art of Science Communication
03:43 Improvisation and Audience Engagement
06:27 Elevating Women’s Voices in Science
11:27 The Intersection of Science and Poetry
14:50 The Importance of Place in Communication
22:39 Rachel’s Work with Dr. Robert Ballard
24:56 Closing Thoughts and Podcast Information

Rachel Rayner is a science communicator, producer and performer who has contributed to projects throughout Australia, Vietnam, the USA and South Africa. She performs her latest one-woman comedy show, “Atomically Correct” at festivals all over Australia and in New Zealand. She also hosts a podcast, “Australian Highlights” that tells stories of innovation in her home country. She toured Vietnam on a diplomatic mission to invigorate science education, broadcasted the frontline of ocean exploration from the bottom of the Pacific, supported the launch of one of the world’s largest science experiments in the South African desert, and co-authored a paper on science poetry. She has had roles in strategic marketing, events, PR, communications and education across government organisations, charities and corporate enterprise. She has a bachelor’s degree in liberal studies and a graduate diploma in science communication.

Connect with Rachel: https://raynerexplainer.com/about.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Veronica: Hello, and welcome to The Quantum Spin by HKA. I’m Veronica Combs. I’m a writer and an editor here at the agency. I get to talk every day with really smart people working on really fascinating subjects, everything in the Quantum industry, from hardware to software. On our podcast, we focus in on quantum communication, and by that I don’t mean making networks safe from hacking or entangling photons over long distance, but talking about the technology.

[00:00:26] How do you explain these complicated concepts to people who don’t have a background in science and engineering but want to understand all the same?

[00:00:34] Today I am talking with Rachel Rayner, the Science Explainer.

[00:00:38] She is a science communicator, a writer and performer who is now based in Sydney, but has worked around the world with scientists and students and all kinds of people who have a sense of curiosity and want to understand the world better. So thank you so much for joining me today, Rachel. I really appreciate it.

[00:00:53] Rachel: Oh, no worries. Thank you for having me on the show.

[00:00:55] Veronica: So I was reading your, through your LinkedIn and looking at all the amazing work that you’ve done. . Oh, you’re based in Australia. You’ve been to Vietnam and South Africa. I think you’ve worked with a telescope project in physics and I went, you’re out on a boat doing deep sea exploration, so your work is so amazing.

[00:01:10] How did you get where you are today?

[00:01:13] Rachel: Oh, thank you.

[00:01:13] I must admit I never had much of a plan and so I think the way I got there was really staying open to opportunities. Saying yes to a lot of things and taking risks and going to South Africa was a big thing going, to be on a boat for a month in the middle of the Pacific, it was just taking those risks. And trusting in myself and putting myself out there and knowing that, yeah, I can do this.

[00:01:38] I’ve got this, I can do this. And so I think it was that saying yes to the opportunities that I found along the way.

[00:01:46] Veronica: And you have a comedy show that you put on. And when you said saying yes, it made me think about improvisation. And isn’t that one of the rules that you say yes,and you keep the story going. So you’ve recently completed a tour of almost every Australian capital city with “Atomically Correct,” a one woman theatrical comedy about quantum physics. So I have to say, that makes me want to buy a ticket to Australia and see you live. Right. How did that show come about?

[00:02:11] Rachel: Earlier in my career I was doing science shows, so I was doing science shows straight out of uni. Really, it was just something that I really enjoyed and it came really naturally to me. And then after a couple of years, I was in more office roles and I was supporting a friend doing shows in the Australian Fringe Festival.

[00:02:29] So the Adelaide Fringe Festival is the second largest art festival in the world. Oh. And it was just awesome going there. I really loved it. And. I had been missing doing shows, I think, and I didn’t want to lose those skills, that skill of writing a show, putting it on, connecting with the audience.

[00:02:43] So fringe festivals are amazing. If you want to put on a show, you can do it. Like you don’t have, no one has to say, yes, you do have to find a venue, there’s not a curator or anything that’s saying, no, this festival is only having this content. So if you really want to put on a show, then a fringe festival is a wonderful way to get started.

[00:03:02] It’s a beautiful community. Beautiful networks, and so I put on my first show, “A Flying Photon,” there. And it went really well. And I just enjoyed putting shows on an Adelaide Fringe. And so then I wrote “Atomically Correct,” and it’s like a sequel to “A Flying Photon”, the first one about the whole electromagnetic spectrum, all the different colors of light, and then this one about the atom and what’s inside the atom.

[00:03:27] And yeah, so it just came about me wanting to keep up my skills in communicating, keep up my skills in storytelling, and putting myself out there and being on stage, but also giving myself that opportunity to go to all the cities and all the towns and do all these performances.

[00:03:42] Veronica: Right, right. So when you think about comedy, do you change your show a lot?

[00:03:47] Like you, you see how the message landed or see how a joke landed and do you change it a lot or do you practice so much that it’s down, or how does that part work?

[00:03:55] Rachel: No. Absolutely. It’s taking a lot of the improv is a, there’s a lot of improv in the shows because they are very the content could be so heavy.

[00:04:02] Like, you know, I could go really deep into particle physics and that sort of thing, but it is that checking in with the audience throughout the show and just seeing where they are, how are they reacting? And every time you do a show, something, there’s something different in the news cycle.

[00:04:17] Something else has happened that day, so playing on that and seeing how, you know, is there something that’s happened in the day that I can draw into the comedy or is there something I really want to avoid? So it does change a lot of the time. I have the set beats and the set structure, but then I keep, I make sure there’s a lot of room to play.

[00:04:37] So playing with the audience and current topics and events, I’m in a different city. What about that city can I bring to the show? So it does, every show is very different. And also have I remembered some things or have I forgotten some things? So it’s going to be very different too, depending on my energy and my,

[00:04:56] Where I am as well personally.

[00:04:58] Veronica: Right, right. And I’m sure some of the same communication tactics apply if you are talking to a bunch of professors or a bunch of executives. And how do you use those techniques with different audiences?

[00:05:11] Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. And one, the improvisation I think is really important, that being on your feet, being ready to go, that I think happens in every conversation.

[00:05:21] You know, it’s that listening. And so even in the show, even though I’m talking on stage, I’m very much at the same time listening to the audience. And it’s that practicing of deep listening that makes us good communicators, I think in the end. So if I’m talking to professors, it’s, you know, really listening to them and considering of what’s brought them into this space, how have we ended up in this space together, what motivating them and all those kind of things of knowing that audience, knowing who you’re talking to and listening to them so you can have a really deep conversation.

[00:05:54] Veronica: Yes. I like to know what I’m talking about, but still leave plenty of room to move. If, like you said, if one of the professors says this was my experience and I did this, or one of the executives said we tried this and it didn’t work.

[00:06:03] You have to know, have enough backstory to go on, but also be able to move with the flow of the conversation.

[00:06:10] Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. Be ready to pivot if you need to. I think we’ve probably all had a time when we’ve tried to make a joke and it hasn’t landed and I’m going, how do I get outta this situation?

[00:06:19] Veronica: Yes. Is now the appropriate time for a joke or do I need to go back to being more serious? It’s an ongoing decision process. A few episodes ago I talked with the leader of Elevating Quantum Women’s Voices, and that is a group in Sydney, I believe it’s based in the city, that helps women to be more confident speakers.

[00:06:37] And I believe one of their goals is to reduce incidents of “manels” where all panels are all men speakers and get more, more voices out into the world to talk about science and technology which is a great and important initiative. I know that you’ve just started working with them and doing that kind of coaching, so I imagine that’s yet a different form of storytelling that you’re working on with folks.

[00:06:59] Rachel: Yes. I’m distracted by the word “manel.” I can’t believe I haven’t heard that before. That’s fantastic.

[00:07:07] Veronica: And it, you can see it in your face. See it in your mind. As soon as you I hear the word,

[00:07:11] Rachel: I knew exactly what you meant. Exactly what you meant. I think it goes into that before, what you said before about how those skills are really transferrable. The communication I’m doing on stage, there’s also the body language element and bringing into that.

[00:07:23] And so with this group, I just started and it’s amazing. Like the whole program is just fantastic. I just can’t praise them enough for putting this together and how even three sessions in how worthwhile I already feel it’s being. So I think, I think for me it’s my role really, a bit of a coach and mentor.

[00:07:43] Because we have these whole group sessions and then we go into smaller groups and that’s when we start to personalize what we’ve been learning. And there’s two of us mentors per group. And I’ve been paired with someone who’s really great in being in the room with people getting the sale, influencing people that way, where I’m much more from that bigger stage and media training.

[00:08:03] So it’s a really great pairing that we’ve got there. And so it’ll be about tailoring the lessons that we’re having to each individual person and going, what do you need? What do you want to practice on? And I can do the voice and the body language and that sort of thing.

[00:08:18] So, and going deeper into the preparing and getting rid of nerves and all that sort of stuff. I’m still like, oh wow, this is just fantastic. This should have been running years ago, but it’s here now and that’s so fantastic.

[00:08:31] Veronica: Right. That’s the important part. And I think sometimes when people have a deep technical expertise, they’re comfortable at that, sort of. At that distance that like jargon and complex information creates, right? Like I know my thing, I know my topic, I can talk about it. Sometimes people don’t want to engage with other people because they won’t understand.

[00:08:51] They have to do too much explaining. But I think working with scientists and really finding that where they’re comfortable and when they’re getting their message across is really a skill. Because they want to go deep in the weeds and you’re like no, no, you’re losing everyone. Come back a little bit.

[00:09:03] That must be an interesting part of your work too,

[00:09:06] Rachel: I think that’s it. I think what I’m asking people to think about in this a bit more is not so much the topic and the content to think about the style and the method of the communication.

[00:09:16] So not so much what they’re communicating, but how are they communicating it, because I think as you say, it’s like you get, it’s very focused on the content and what is the topic we’re talking about, that sort of thing. And I’m kind of, we’re working on taking a step back and going what is the style I’m presenting in?

[00:09:32] What is the room? Who’s in the room? What’s the space? Is a panel conversation or is it one-on-one? Or is it a presentation? Is it a keynote speech? So what are all my tools and that sort of thing, and doing that setting of the scene and figuring out your mode of presenting before you think about the topic and content.

[00:09:51] And so that’s what I’m yeah, that’s what I’m trying to get them to think a little bit more about.

[00:09:55] Veronica: And are the women in the group thinking mostly about presentations to a corporate group or are there other settings that they want, they’re going to be communicating in?

[00:10:06] Rachel: Yeah, it’s a very varied group where they’re all different levels and experiences and so we’ve got someone that’s at university that’s looking to do more conference presentations and get deeper into the scientific field, and then someone that’s in the corporate world that’s wanting to influence their colleagues a bit more.

[00:10:21] So it’s all these really interesting, different, varied experiences so we can all learn a lot from each other, which is really good.

[00:10:29] Veronica: Right, right. That is interesting. Making that jump from the lab to the boardroom is something that we work with our clients a lot, showing the scientific rigor behind the work , whether it’s error correction or hardware design or algorithms showing that deep expertise without losing your audience in, the deep math that that some of these folks are working on researching.

[00:10:52] Rachel: So yeah, some of us love it. I like to sit there and be completely bamboozled. I quite enjoy that. It’s like this vague out of body experience where I’m like, wow, this is a whole field that I know nothing about. Oh my gosh. There’s so much wonder in the universe to find more about. As long as no one’s asking me to make decisions about the content, it’s fine.

[00:11:10] Veronica: Right, right. And to see that other person’s enjoyment in their work, that like they’ve figured it out or we tried five things and the six things were six thing work or whatever.

[00:11:20] Rachel: Yeah, because if I don’t understand the content, I can see the passion, and that’s exciting.

[00:11:27] Veronica: I know that yet another spot that you’ve been working in is science poetry and I think that’s such an amazing mashup because you think about the ethereal, mystic elements of poetry. Not all poetry, but some poetry is very interpretive and subjective, but that science is all about numbers and measurements and precise communication. So how did you end up combining those two topics?

[00:11:49] Rachel: I’ve been writing and reading poetry for as long as I can remember. And so I was definitely into poetry first, before being interested in science. And now where I am today, I like to make art inspired by science. That’s how I look at my creative practice. And with poetry though because poetry has meters. It’s got meters and feet and all these rules and things.

[00:12:16] If you want to write a sonnet, if you want to write a Shakespearian sonnet, then you’ve got your iambic pentameter and your different rhyming schemes. If you want to write a Petrarchan sonnet, there’s a whole different lot of rules for that. And then, my goodness, a villanelle, so complicated. I like poetry in that it’s got something for everyone.

[00:12:32] If you really want your structure and your rules, which I do, I like some rules and structure. You can get that. If you want to be much more free flowing and free form and creative, you can absolutely do that too. And so I like to create poetry that’s inspired by science.

[00:12:47] So using scientific words. Because I see poetry, at the end of the day being, it’s an experiment with language. You’re experimenting with how far can you push language, what can you do with language? And so using science and all the extra science words you have, like all the different words for weird things in space.

[00:13:09] I think I’ve talked about the word magnetar a few times, which is a type of celestial body that we dunno much about. How cool. Yeah. Write a Shakespeare sonnet about a magnetar. So. I don’t see poetry as a method of communicating science. I think that’s an important distinction there. I see it more as a vehicle of self-expression.

[00:13:30] And if you’re inspired by science, then why not write, write poetry that’s inspired by science.

[00:13:35] Veronica: Right, right. No, that’s a really good point. There are lots of rules around poetry and it’s like music, the connection between music and science. The key and the meter and the time signature and all that.

[00:13:46] All of that. I was interviewing Professor Nancy Kowalek who works at the University of Chicago and she has a theater troupe that she finds science students to be the actors in her troupe.. And we were talking about Walt Whitman and “I contain multitudes,” and I thought, oh my gosh,

[00:14:02] that’s quantum science, right? Entanglement and multi phases and all these things. So yes. After all this time reading about quantum Walt Whitman opened the door for a real understanding of the topic.

[00:14:14] Rachel: Absolutely. And there’s some great science poets in Australia that are just producing beautiful work. One of my favorites is Alicia Sometimes, her recent book is called “Stellar” Atmospheres”, and there’s a lot of astronomy poetry in there and different poems about famous women astronomers throughout time. And yeah it’s just a really lovely collection.

[00:14:35] Veronica: Wow. Well, I often ask guests for science fiction books that they recommend, but now I have a poetry collection to add to that list, so thank you for that.

[00:14:44] Rachel: I’ll add in Tricia Dearborn “Auto Biochemistry” as well. That would be my other suggestion.

[00:14:50] Veronica: We’ve talked about a lot of different communication settings, and I think one thing that folks sometimes underestimate is that sense of place or where you are delivering your message, how that has such an impact on actually your message.

[00:15:03] I interviewed Karina Robinson. She has an annual event in London, and she said everyone was having these quantum conferences and basements and no one was to go to a basement to talk about things. So I told them we’re out of the basement. She said it in a lovely British accent, much more gracefully.

[00:15:20] How do you think about place when it comes to communicating, whether it’s a small one, it’s on a boat in the ocean, or maybe on stage or in a university setting? How does place play into it?

[00:15:29] Rachel: Oh, absolutely. Because I think before you try and communicate anything, people are in the space and they’re analyzing the space and there’s, they.

[00:15:38] You know, sensing from the space, I know that I work best when I have a view of the ocean, you know, so. Mm-hmm. Sure, sure. so I must go near the ocean regularly. But, so it’s the same sort of thing. I think we all have areas where we’re going to work best. We’re all going to have areas where we are listening best, where we’re more open to information and messages.

[00:16:00] And I think taking time to think about, yeah, where do I feel most secure, most happy, most, willing to have conversations with people. And so I think about with my shows as well, especially because I’m doing science shows in arts festivals I don’t want to be doing it in a lecture theater because

[00:16:19] then I’m just, I’m classifying my show as a lecture and there are some points of the show that get a little bit too lecturey. And so I want to avoid that feeling. If I’ve got a little bit that’s lecturey and I’m in a lecture theater, I’ve just doubled the sense of lecture, so if I’m in a theater with beautiful lighting and big curtains and plush chairs, then, and I’ve got a little section that’s a bit lecturey.

[00:16:43] That it doesn’t feel as lecturey anymore because we’re in a space that feels more artistic. And so the whole show is going to feel more artistic if I’m in a beautiful speakeasy bar or something like that. So I want to be taking the science to the arts rather than taking the science to the science, right. So I think, yeah, it’s, can we set up these contrasts and juxtapositions in the spaces we’re in, or can we build a space that’s more inspiring so that when we do start to deliver the message, people are in a place where they’re more receptive to it.

[00:17:16] Veronica: Right, right. I was working on a project that was measuring the impact of tree coverage on respiratory health.

[00:17:24] Mm-hmm. We were having a meeting and I scheduled a meeting at a library that was on the edge of town. And everyone was complaining about why do we have to drive all the way out there? But the conference room had, one of its walls was all glass and all you could see outside was trees.

[00:17:37] And so once people experienced the space, they’re like, oh yeah, thank you for making us drive all the way out here. So it does make a difference where you have these conversations. So I’m curious when you’re on stage or when you’re coaching folks, how do you advise people to pivot when they’re losing someone or they’re losing the audience, or, if you’re watching, you can see people pick up their phone or just sit back.

[00:17:59] Do you have any advice for people; how do you get them back?

[00:18:03] Rachel: Get them back. Yeah. And I think that’s first off, knowing your material really well, so you know how to play with it is probably first and foremost. So if you are losing them. You go, okay in, say it’s in, in a couple of bits, I actually get to this bit that is a bit more exciting or there’s a laugh there, or there’s something that’s organic.

[00:18:21] Can I just skip this bit where I’m losing them and jump to that? So that’s obviously this bit that I’m in now is not connecting, can I just drop it and go? But in the moment, I think to have a pause as well. Because the sudden silence people go, what’s going on? And they can come back.

[00:18:39] And I always remember when we used to do kids shows. One of my mentors at the time – kids get really noisy, they get really loud rather than raising your voice, which then means that they raise their voice–said to just bring your voice down and suddenly build this moment of something’s going to happen. And you’re going to miss it. You bring them back in.

[00:18:59] So I think there’s that is that, it’s just if you know your content really well and you’re able to play with it a little more, maybe drop something, bring something in, or just go, or I suppose in, if you’re seeing ’em go away, ask ’em a question, check in with them. Is there a way you can be like, have you had this problem?

[00:19:17] You know, Or what are you seeing at the moment? And try and bring them back into the conversation.

[00:19:23] Veronica: Yes, that’s a really good point about knowing your material and having in the back of your mind things that you know will do work, right, or consistently get a laugh or have people leaning back into the conversation.

[00:19:33] That’s really good. That’s a really good point. As I mentioned, I was reading your LinkedIn profile and checking out your website and you have a podcast that you’re working on, I believe as well.

[00:19:43] Rachel: Yeah. So, I was lucky enough to get a grant through the Walkley Foundation, which in Australia is a journalist organization supporting journalists and journalist integrity in Australia, which is really great.

[00:19:54] They do really good work. And they had a grant offer for people capturing Australian stories. They had a preference for capturing stories from marginalized groups. And so I put together a podcast pitch about telling stories of Australian innovation that you know, people don’t know.

[00:20:14] And there’s so many, there’s so many really good stories that are just, yeah, unknown that just slide away under the carpet and I’m trying to pull those out and yeah. Get them out there. And so I’ve been working on that for a year. I think I’ve got about 25 episodes out and there’s 10 more in the pipeline.

[00:20:33] And it’s been really good. It’s been really great. It’s helped me as a communicator get better at interviewing people and really practicing listening. I think we forget how much we need to practice listening. It’s just because it’s just so important. And I think not to listen like, because sometimes we hear something and we go, oh, I’ve got a response to that.

[00:20:54] And you miss the rest because you’re so busy thinking about your response. So doing the podcast as well I’ve really strengthened my skills in interviewing and listening and just had the most wonderful conversations with people about the amazing work that’s happening in Australia around innovation and things that have happened in our past.

[00:21:13] And, these great female role models that I’ve never heard of before that now I’m trying to lift to the fore.

[00:21:19] Veronica: And is it called Australian Highlights? Is that the series? It is, yes.

[00:21:24] So I think your motto is, “Be curious, enjoy both the arts and the sciences and make sure you look at the stars.” In looking through all of your work, there really is a sense of wonder. And that’s important to you. A sense of wonder is an important part of all of your communication, it feels like. What’s the benefit of bringing a sense of fun and awe to science communication?

[00:21:45] Rachel: Yeah, and that’s a big question actually, why not? You know, why not? I will find out something about the way particles work and on an atomic level, the way they’re zooming around stars in these huge magnetic fields.

[00:22:00] And I just go, wow, that’s so amazing. I just want to share this for someone else because maybe someone else will find this as inspiring as I do. It’s just trying to encourage people to think more widely and be more curious and just, yeah, ask a few more questions about the world and maybe change their perspective a little bit.

[00:22:21] Veronica: Wonder is important just because our world is wondrous, and wonderful and taking the time to see that is important.

[00:22:28] If you want to keep it healthy. Yes. And keep it going and understand it better.

[00:22:33] Rachel: Yeah. You’re totally right. I think, yeah, it inspires us to look after the planet and each other that little bit more.

[00:22:39] Veronica: So I know that in addition to attending the fringe festivals and performing, you also had the chance to work with Dr. Robert Ballard on the EV Nautilus. Tell me what that was like.

[00:22:50] Rachel: Oh, that was incredible. It’s this ship that sails around, it’s still sailing around.

[00:22:55] So I was there, woo, nearly 10 years ago. It is still doing great stuff. So they’ve got these remotely operated vehicles on board that go down up to four kilometers underwater. And they go under water and

[00:23:08] everything is live streamed. So my job on board as the communicator was to be in the control room with the engineers and the pilots and the scientists. Receiving questions from people watching at home and then asking them to the people around me, what are we looking at? How does the vehicle work like this?

[00:23:26] What’s happening now? Wow, these pressures. And it’s just that setting up that interface between people anywhere in the world and our ship in the middle of the Pacific was just incredible. So just the way new technologies have opened up so we can have these scientific communications just anywhere and like this was science, the forefront of science, like what we were seeing no one had ever seen before, and anyone could watch it from anywhere just by signing into nautiluslive.org. Like just amazing.

[00:23:56] Veronica: Wow, that is really cool. And I think people, sometimes we underestimate our fellow humans, I think because there is a deep sense of curiosity and people do want to know what robots can see under the sea. And to have you there to be the intermediary that again, preserves the source of wonder and interest.

[00:24:13] Rachel: Yeah. And also hearing how human engineers and scientists are. It’s like when we see something cool underwater, they’re also like, whoa, that’s awesome. We all have those same moments of wonder.

[00:24:23] Veronica: Right, right. It brings, it brings maybe the profession or the ability, or the career a little bit closer too, right?

[00:24:29] Like they’re not some remote person who somehow has the magical ability to engineer robots, but they’re just like the rest of us and have just spent the time to develop the expertise.

[00:24:40] Rachel: Exactly. And I really do think any one of us could be a scientist, and it’s not about not being smart enough or anything.

[00:24:47] It’s do you want to do that? Are you passionate about that? And then just going out

[00:24:50] Veronica: And doing it.

[00:24:51] Rachel: Right.

[00:24:51] Veronica: Finding where your curiosity will lead you. Yeah, exactly.

[00:24:55] Wow. That sounds great. We will look for the podcast “Australian Highlights” and do they put any of the fringe performances on YouTube?

[00:25:03] Rachel: No, you have to be there and experience it. No, it’s all in the moment.

[00:25:10] Veronica: Well, that is also an experience we need to preserve in this digital world seeing people face to face, being in the moment.

[00:25:16] Rachel: It’s nice because AI can’t steal it if it’s not online.

[00:25:19] Veronica: Oh, yes. Yes. Strategic decision as well. You’re right. Rachel,

[00:25:23] Thank you so much for joining me today, and

[00:25:25] Thanks for sharing all your work with us.

[00:25:27] Rachel: Oh, thank you so much for having me on.